| Russ in TX |
| | 12/13/08 at 02:52 PM | Reply with quote | #31 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by maria brullo
I understand the views you hold regarding the human right to choose, the thousands of years it has taken to develop special breeds, the concern over defining the term puppy mill (although it seems that the place where the dog was obtained is not a puppy mill), and so on.
All considered, what seems to be the issue is: why not try to obtain a being about to be killed over one that is being taken care of. Why not give it a chance and save a life? Wouldn't you want and hope for the same if you were in a cage waiting to be euthanized?
Animals are smarter than we give them credit for. They know when something is about to go wrong.They know when they have been unfairly treated.They know when they are in danger. They are sentient. Just because they do not speak doesn't mean we should treat them like objects dependent on our whims. Sentience is what defines us all, animal and human. It would have been nice to take one out of a kill shelter. There are thousands that are just as special. That's all I'm saying.
Maria,
Perhaps you missed the point where I stated rather clearly that I DO work in rescue. This was not a decision made by seeing the abhorrent conditions of pets at shelters, this was a choice made by happenstance. I do not regret a single moment of it. I do however see that VP elect Biden made a choice of a known breed from a known breeder. When one is the Vice president to be, one does not have to risk the chance that the rescue or shelter dog is ill, genetically unsound or has mental or temperment issues. You know what you're buying. An analogy would be buying a car. do you get one from a used car lot where you are inheriting someone elses problems or do you buy a new one from a dealership with a warranty?
In response to your comment of "why buy a dog from a breeder when so many will die" It's incredibly simple. Dogs are in shelters and killed because of irresponsible pet owners and overzealous Animal control factions that dont want people to own pets. The VP elect or even pres elect Obama wont make an iota of difference getting a dog from a shelter. If 3 million are killed each year, 2 dogs aren't going to amount to a drop in the proverbial bucket. What will change is how responsible owners and breeders are treated by society. They will then be the sourge of the earth, the lowest of low; and for what? How a small group of Animal rights people choose to use legislation and media to control how society thinks? You want the real crime? It's not all the dogs in shelters (many of which are IMPORTED from outer countries); it's how an average person is villified for wanting or owning a dog.
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| Lee |
| | 12/13/08 at 03:38 PM | Reply with quote | #32 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Carol
Congratulations to the Biden family, for exercising their right to choose their pet, for their good decision to select a pup of a Breed they know and love, and for selecting a pup from a reputable Breeder.
May all people continue to have this choice, in spite of those who wish to take it away.
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| shelter dog |
| | 12/13/08 at 04:01 PM | Reply with quote | #33 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sheila in NJ
Alexis wrote:
"With respect to PETA killing animals, I don't believe that's true. PETA does an amazing job exposing animal cruelty and raising awareness with the public. They do NOT have shelters as do the ASPCA, Humane Society, etc.
I'm not sure whey people are continually criticizing PETA. That organization has done more for animals than any other group. Even though in the past their tactics were sometimes been a bit radical, they've toned down their approach and are now taken very seriously. Their undercover investigations, in particular, are INCREDIBLE, as are its marketing materials. "
Is that so? PETA's own report to the Commonwealth of Virginia showed that in (I think) 2006, or maybe it was 2007, PETA killed over 97% of the animals that were accepted for sheltering, and YES THEY HAVE A SHELTER (it's HSUS that doesn't, except for those they "inherited" from groups they took over). Just check out petakillsanimals.com to see the actual reported numbers over a period of several years.
As for what they have "done for" animals -- well, get specific! What have they done for animals? They put their interns in cages on street corners, they ask their interns to change their names, they lie naked in the snow... How does that help animals?
What about the old, outdated and highly edited videos they distribute to "prove" things that are not true? What does *that* do for animals?
Joe Biden is going about selecting a puppy in the right way -- he found a breeder that interviews customers, checks that the customers (not "adopters") really like dogs, that they pick one with the right personality, and the puppy will not be delivered until after the family has settled into its new residence. They have lined up a trainer who will help the puppy learn to be a good member of the family.
I sure hope the Obama family does as well. And what will they do if Malia's allergies prove too much, and they got a shelter dog, and can't keep it? Will the shelter take it back? If the Obamas buy a purebred puppy from a breeder, the breeder will *insist* on getting it back if things don't work out, for whatever reason.
While I'm in the subject area, it's too bad that Wayne Pacelle has the cartoonist Patrick McDonnell so well deluded that Patrick actually donates his work for HSUS fund raisers that are intended to stop the breeding of purebred dogs and cats. Patrick owns a purebred dog, having replaced his original "Earl" (a Jack Russell Terrier) with another dog. Has he forgotten that Wayne has said, "One generation and out" meaning that more purebred dogs should not be born, nor pedigreed cats, nor, for that matter, the varied and useful types of livestock that we have.
Center for Consumer Freedom Exposed
and Other Opposition Groups
http://www.consumerdeception.com
The Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF) (formerly called the "Guest Choice Network") is a front group for the restaurant, alcohol and tobacco industries. It runs media campaigns which oppose the efforts of scientists, doctors, health advocates, environmentalists and groups like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, calling them "the Nanny Culture -- the growing fraternity of food cops, health care enforcers, anti-meat activists, and meddling bureaucrats who 'know what's best for you.
For more detailed information, please visit: and additional information is available at:
Expose of Richard Berman of the Center for Consumer Freedom: “While Berman presents himself as a defender of consumers against overbearing bureaucrats and health zealots, he's really defending the interests of another group: restaurant chains, food and beverage companies, meat producers, and others who stand to see profits hampered by government regulations, or even by increased health awareness on the part of customers.” http://www.commercialexploitation.com/news/articles/berman.htm
Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics Blast the Center for Consumer Freedom for Violations of Tax-Exempt Status “Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) filed a complaint with the Internal Revenue Service alleging that the Center for Consumer Freedom has violated its tax exempt status.” http://citizensforethics.org/press/newsrelease.php?view=5 Current funding for The Center for Consumer Freedom comes from the companies listed below:
(none returned repeated e-mails from the Press Office requesting current status) - Outback Steak House
- China Mist
- Cameron Mitchell Restaurants
- Brinker International
- Excel Fresh Meats
- HMS Host Corporation
- John Soules Food
- Kens Food Inc.
- Michigan Turkey Producers Co-operative
- Not Your Average Joes
- Perdue Farms
- Simmons Foods Inc.
- Tyson Foods Inc.
As stated on their website, certain individuals and contributors wish to remain anonymous. These are org's who don't want to lose any $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
-----------------------
"The Center for Consumer Freedom is supported by over 100 companies and thousands of individual consumers. From farm to fork, from urban to rural, our friends and supporters include businesses, their employees, and their customers.
Many of the companies and individuals who support the Center financially have indicated that they want anonymity as contributors." The Center for Consumer Freedom is responsible for putting the following other sites on the Internet:  |  ActivistCash.com | | AnimalScam.com | | CSPIScam.com | | MercuryFacts.org | | ObesityMyths.com | | PetaKillsAnimals.com | | PhysicianScam.com | | Trans-FatFacts.com |
ActivistCash.com is a web site affiliated with the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), a front group for the restaurant, alcohol and tobacco industries. ActivistCash.com was launched in November 2001. ActivistCash.com was created by Berman & Co., a public affairs firm owned by lobbyist Rick Berman. Based in Washington, DC, Berman & Co. represents the tobacco industry as well as hotels, beer distributors, taverns, and restaurant chains. In a 1999 interview with the Chain Leader, a trade publication for restaurant chains, Berman boasted that he attacks activists more aggressively than other lobbyists. "We always have a knife in our teeth," he said. Since activists "drive consumer behavior on meat, alcohol, fat, sugar, tobacco and caffeine," his strategy is "to shoot the messenger. ... We've got to attack their credibility as spokespersons." ActivistCash.com was established for precisely this purpose. It attempts to discredit activists by suggesting that there is something disreputable about the money they have received from foundations.
Imagine being against Mothers Against Drunk Drivers!! All because they are afraid they are going to lose $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ with people not boozing it up. Obviously, the $$$$$$$$$ is more important than someone getting killed by a drunk. You can only hope a drunk kills the owner of the liquor company or a loved member of his family.
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| Kathryn | |
| Larissa |
| | 12/13/08 at 05:51 PM | Reply with quote | #35 |
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On the subject of PETA why not read Nathan's blog.
http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/2008/01/petas-grizzliest-year-ever.html
- PETA killed 1,942 of the 1,960 cats, finding homes for only 2.
- PETA killed 988 of the 1,030 dogs finding homes for only 8.
- PETA killed 50 of the 52 other companion animals (rabbits, guinea pigs, etc.), finding homes for only 2.
- PETA killed the chicken they took in.
"That’s a 97% kill rate. Despite $30 million in revenues, they found homes for only 12 animals. An additional 21 cats and 25 dogs were transferred to another agency (likely a kill shelter since PETA has a “policy against No Kill sheters.”) The rest were put to death." Read up on Nathan's blog about Wayne and the HSUS. http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/2008/07/real-wayne-pacelle-
legacy.html
"In Louisiana, Wayne Pacelle’s HSUS raised over $20 million to help the animals impacted by Hurricane Katrina and only spent $4 million before packing up, money piling up in bank accounts, and going home."
"In Virginia, Wayne Pacelle’s HSUS raised money allegedly for the dog victims of dogfighter Michael Vick (which they did not have custody of) and then told the court overseeing the case to go ahead and kill the dogs. (The court refused, they are now with rescue groups and in loving new homes.)"
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| RowanM |
| | 12/13/08 at 06:21 PM | Reply with quote | #36 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Russ in TX
[Maria,
Perhaps you missed the point where I stated rather clearly that I DO work in rescue. ....... The VP elect or even pres elect Obama wont make an iota of difference getting a dog from a shelter. If 3 million are killed each year, 2 dogs aren't going to amount to a drop in the proverbial bucket. What will change is how responsible owners and breeders are treated by society. They will then be the sourge of the earth, the lowest of low; and for what? How a small group of Animal rights people choose to use legislation and media to control how society thinks? You want the real crime? It's not all the dogs in shelters (many of which are IMPORTED from outer countries); it's how an average person is villified for wanting or owning a dog.
I suspect you "work in rescue" the way Bird Paradise "works in rescue" or the store Monster Pets "works in rescue."
And you're either incredibly thick or incredibly naive to write that "the VP elect or even pres elect Obama wont make an iota of difference in getting a dog from a shelter." Not only would that adoption make a HUGE difference in the lives for those dogs, but people look to them as role models and will emulate what they do. Now I expect there will be a big demand for the dogs sold by the breeder from where Biden purchased his dog. Imagine what a difference that could make had he chosen to adopt from the Delaware Humane Society....
By the way, breeders who breed solely for profit are already the scourge of the earth and among the lowest of the low. They don't need the vice pres or the pres saving the life of a deserving dog to accomplish that.
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| Carol from Florida |
| | 12/13/08 at 08:41 PM | Reply with quote | #37 |
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Rowan M I agree with you. Biden 'could have been' a great help to the innocent, abused, neglected, loving & VERY WORTHY animals in kill shelters all over the USA! I'm not even sure why this puppy is labeled a 'puppy mill puppy,' at a month old??? Going to a breeder does NOT mean that this puppy is from a puppy mill! Was the puppy's mother at a puppy mill and then rescued? Does anyone have the newspaper article about this? WHY is this puppy being labeled a puppy mill puppy??? And yes, everyone has the right to their own choices, BUT WHY publicize buying (getting) a puppy from a breeder? Is this suppose to be news worthy and a wonderful thing, while there are so many dying in kill shelters? IF you'd read up on breeds, you will see that the purebred dogs have more of a chance of getting genetic illnesses than the mixed breeds! GO to the shelters! Contact rescuers! There are hundreds and hundreds of purebreds there if that's what you're looking for! |
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| Bob P |
| | 12/13/08 at 10:05 PM | Reply with quote | #38 |
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Thanks for your post, Larissa, exposing Pacelle for what he is.
In fact, Pacelle continued to invoke the Vick dogs, as fund-raising tools, long months after he had advised they be put down. Unless one knew the truth, one could easily assume that the HSUS was helping out the Vick dogs in some way - when it was Best Friends that took them in. To use these dogs in fund-raising campaigns, when all Pacelle suggested for them was death, is nothing less than dishonest and outrageous.
The Katrina shenanigans, the claim that the HSUS had had cock-fighting banned in all fifty states, when it was still legal in Virginia, the lauding of Bill Richardson for his "leadership"in having cock fights outlawed in New Mexico, while ignoring the fact that Richardson had refused, numerous other times to support such a ban, indeed, referring to cock-fighting as a "non-issue" - all deceptions.
The only reason trophy hunter Richardson finally signed on to a cock-fighting bill, is that he was running for president and realized his support of cock-fighting could be used against him.
It wasn't the first time Pacelle had underplayed the hunting of presidential candidates, as he did likewise for Kerry, four years ago.
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| Russ from TX |
| | 12/13/08 at 10:33 PM | Reply with quote | #39 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by RowanM
I suspect you "work in rescue" the way Bird Paradise "works in rescue" or the store Monster Pets "works in rescue."
And you're either incredibly thick or incredibly naive to write that "the VP elect or even pres elect Obama wont make an iota of difference in getting a dog from a shelter." Not only would that adoption make a HUGE difference in the lives for those dogs, but people look to them as role models and will emulate what they do. Now I expect there will be a big demand for the dogs sold by the breeder from where Biden purchased his dog. Imagine what a difference that could make had he chosen to adopt from the Delaware Humane Society....
By the way, breeders who breed solely for profit are already the scourge of the earth and among the lowest of the low. They don't need the vice pres or the pres saving the life of a deserving dog to accomplish that.
Are there breeders who only breed animals for profit? Of Course. That's not even a point in question, yet you believed it was. Stick to the conversation at hand.
Did I say that there was be no impact? Not at all. I stated that His choice of animal would shift societal perception. But I guess that doesn't forward your agenda now does it?
I again didn't see how you sought to agree with me that pet overpopulation is due to irresponsible owners and overzealous Animal Rights based factions. Could it be that you fall into that catagory? Could it be that when you're exposed, you choose slander? Here's a nice quote to remember:
"When the battle is lost, slander becomes the weapon of the vanquished"
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| Tx |
| | 12/14/08 at 12:32 AM | Reply with quote | #40 |
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Ross, I believe that I agree with you. People have different criteria for the animal that they can take care of based on their own expertise so they go to the sources that they can trust to provide with the pet that suits them .
There is responsible breeding based on demand. A responsible breeder would not breed more animals than can be absorbed by responsible owners in his market.
It doesn't matter what type of animal it is dogs, cats, birds, rabbits or gerbils but the longer living animals are more exposed to abuse by over breeding. The responsible breeders would breed healthy animals and put people on waiting lists to make sure they are not acting on a whim so these breeders would not breed more animals than necessary.
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| here, here |
| | 12/14/08 at 10:14 AM | Reply with quote | #41 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by RowanMQuote: Originally Posted by Russ in TX
[Maria,
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| nationally exposed! |
| | 12/14/08 at 12:15 PM | Reply with quote | #42 |
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LATEST INFO--Biden Bought Dog Not Just From A "Breeder" But A Puppy Mill--Jana Kohl Letter/ Contact Info
PLEASE CROSS POST TO WRITE COMMENTS TO BIDEN, GO TO:
To the Obama and Biden offices:
I'm shocked and angered by today's news that the Bidens bought a dog from a breeder rather than adopting (see link at top). Someone in receipt of this (to whom it's bcc'd) needs to forward this email to them.
President-elect Obama is featured in a book, A Rare Breed of Love, with Baby, an abused 3-legged survivor of the dog breeding industry. Barack pledged support of the mission to not only stop the cruelty of the dog breeding world, but to also promote adoption of the 4-5 million homeless shelter dogs who are euthanized each year -- at a cost to taxpayers of $2 billion a year. Thanks to the Bidens purchase of a dog rather than adoption, this will now embolden the dog breeding industry to continue to fuel the pet overpopulation epidemic, costing taxpayers billions, which, in this economy, is a travesty. It will also perpetuate the horrific cruelty at puppy mills by increasing demand for the kind of dog the Bidens bought. The "legalized torture" that is the hallmark of the dog breeding industry will be fueled by this terrible turn of events.
I find this news especially frustrating and infuriating since I tried to get through to people in Obama's office these past weeks to remind him about his pledge to adopt, having heard reports that the American Kennel Club (AKC) had reached out to the Obamas to help them find a dog. The AKC are the bad guys. They are the front for the puppy mill industry and all breeders who continue to breed irresponsibly when millions of loving, adoptable dogs are dragged to the gas chambers each year. Despite the AKC's spin that they only endorse "humane breeders," that is a patent lie; moreover, "humane breeder" is a contradiction in terms given that millions of homeless dogs are killed each year precisely because breeders continue to flood the market with new puppies, just like the one the Bidens bought. Were it not for the unconscionable dog breeding industry and willing buyers like the Bidens, our government would have an extra $2 billion a year at its' disposal to use on more worthy programs than pet euthanasia, and millions of deserving dogs would find themselves in loving homes instead of gas chambers.
Baby and I spent several grueling months crossing the country in a touring coach with a 10-foot tall photo of Barack and Baby plastered on the side (in defiance of my publisher, who was upset that I was appearing partisan and thus might turn away the Republican market). Baby and I spoke to countless Americans from coast to coast, to whom I lauded Mr. Obama for his support of this mission. To now learn that the Vice-President-elect and his wife have done the very worst thing a high-profile leader can do regarding this issue, means that all our efforts were for naught.
A few weeks ago, I got a meaningless reply to my concerns from an Obama staffer who "[thanked me] for my interest in their dog." Given my role in this issue, I have a responsibility to remind the President-elect's office of his pledge to protect the millions of innocent creatures who are brutalized 24 hours a day by this industry, and the pledge he made to promote adoption. I had expected to receive more than a form letter in reply to my concerns; rather, to be assured that we were all on the same page, but obviously the message hasn't gotten through.
Millions of dog lovers across the country were counting on this administration to do the right thing: To end the cruelty of the dog breeding industry by promoting adoption. Clearly, we have now suffered a terrible setback in that goal and unless there is some demonstrable and public recourse taken, many will speak loudly and publicly about this terrible misstep.
I'm beyond crushed as I consider the negative and far-reaching impact of this. As a psychologist, I understand too well that the abuse of our most vulnerable and voiceless populations -- children, the poor, minorities, gays, women, or animals -- has a trickle-up effect that negatively impacts all of our society and diminishes our moral standing.
I also know that the buying habits of our leaders and celebrities are, sadly, imitated by millions.
Jana Kohl, Psy.D.
Update: I just received a description of the breeder/puppy mill that the Bidens bought their dog from. This first-hand account comes from a respected anti-puppy mill activist who has investigated countless mills. I also just learned that the Philadelphia Inquirer is already at work on the Biden story, written by a reporter who has exposed PA's horrific puppy mill problem -- one of the worst in the nation, along with Missouri, Ohio, and all the others. I've received emails tonight from scores of people who have already heard the news and are stunned....people who know that Barack participated in Baby's book and our project, and can't imagine how or why the Bidens didn't choose to adopt. Below is the description of the breeder the Bidens bought from, in his words.....
When I was there she had dogs living outside in igloos and a large side building wrapped in blue plastic... the barking was deafening.... her inspection report states approximately 100 breeding dogs... she sold more than 275 dogs in 2006.....it was a stupid move on Biden's part... a puppy mill, for sure.
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| luciedove |
| | 12/14/08 at 12:55 PM | Reply with quote | #43 |
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The NYBC received the following concerning puppy mills, which I promised to post:
Hello Best Bird Club, I have had several objections to some of the terminology you are using for the V.P. dog selection. I don't mean to offend you, but just want you to have a really clear picture of what a real puppy mill breeder does. The V.P. did not get a dog from a puppy mill as puppy mills don't train dogs for folks before they go into their new home. Please circulate the video provided below as it gives everyone a clear picture of the real problem target which is mass production of dogs by folks who are not in any way responsible breeders ( i.e. such as mass production and dog dumping done by the Amish in Pa. and the MidWest). Thank you very much. Regards, Kris Banks
Sent: 12/13/2008 8:45:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: FW: Dog Auction video
Hi Kristin, I just received this email this AM after responding to yours, thought I would pass it on so perhaps you can pass it to your source so they can see how puppy mill puppies are auctioned off. There are also several other videos in the same vein, but I was disturbed enough by this one that I did not want to watch another at this time. I had to copy & paste the link. Karen S. Keen, BS Animal Biotech & Conservation Dept.Delaware Valley College700 East Butler AvenueDoylestown, PA 18901"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole" Roger Caras
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:10 AM Subject: Dog Auction video
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| Gail |
| | 12/14/08 at 02:48 PM | Reply with quote | #44 |
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I have been involved in animal rescue for over 40 years and get our dogs and cats from rescue.
However, sometimes people just need to have a certain breed or dogs are bred for training as companion dogs for the blind or disabled, so to label ALL breeders as puppy mills is libelous and subject to prosecution if names are mentioned.
I too would like to see a world where all dogs and cats have loving homes, but yuou can't reach that goal by negative programming.
I am active in Labradoodle rehoming and there are plenty of them in shelters. This month I have found homes for 6 and raised $2500 for eye surgery, for one that was going to be put down, and now she is in a forever home.
Less complaining and more positive ACTION will get the job done.
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| Russ in TX |
| | 12/14/08 at 05:22 PM | Reply with quote | #45 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Gail
I have been involved in animal rescue for over 40 years and get our dogs and cats from rescue.
However, sometimes people just need to have a certain breed or dogs are bred for training as companion dogs for the blind or disabled, so to label ALL breeders as puppy mills is libelous and subject to prosecution if names are mentioned.
I too would like to see a world where all dogs and cats have loving homes, but yuou can't reach that goal by negative programming.
I am active in Labradoodle rehoming and there are plenty of them in shelters. This month I have found homes for 6 and raised $2500 for eye surgery, for one that was going to be put down, and now she is in a forever home.
Less complaining and more positive ACTION will get the job done.
Very well stated Gail.
Unfortunately as we know in rescue, there is much more sensationalism by negativity than the heart string tugging stories. Particularly in my specific breed of rescue, I see it day in and day out "they're such a CUTE puppy" then they grow up and eat the couch. Next thing I know, I'm getting a call from a Shelter asking if we have any room or the animal gets put down. In Texas the breed I work with cannot be adopted out to the public which now Guarantees a death sentance if we cant pull them.
I believe the overall goal should be to increase responibility, education and a no-kill philosophy. The main stream AR groups, PETA, HSUS, etc don't care about animal welfare. Reputable breeders are paramount in making this happen. They are concerned about the health and quality of a breed. They are concerned that they can match the right home to the right animal. Responsible breeding is not a get rich quick scheme. Many lose money or make a minimal profit. But they follow their passion for a Breed and do what it takes for the overall betterment of that breed. These are the same people that others on here have lambasted and thrown into a universal bucket and slander them by calling them puppy mills. Yet Not a SINGLE person has had the cajones to step forward and DEFINE it. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. How about HONESTY and Positive actions for once.
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