| julia breveleri |
| | 09/10/09 at 02:54 PM | Reply with quote | #31 |
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| Yes, that is true. However, you need to remember that, in 1940, a couple of her older brothers were serving in the military. Her closest sister, Kathleen, was in the social whirl in England. And I think the Kennedy parents tried to shelter Rosemary's younger sibs from knowing just how "different" she was. Also, to be fair, she did not even last the full 8 weeks at camp. It is also possible that she might have acted out even more had family members come to see her. By acting out, I mean she was capable of making appalling scenes, like a really little kid . . . but she was, physically, a grown woman. It was an awful situation. I think her younger sister Eunice had a heart of gold, bringing those disabled by retardation out into the open. In 1940, things were very different than they are today, and the reason for that is largely what Eunice did - also what the family as a whole did with contributions to research into retardation. In Boston there is an institute named after Joseph P. Kennedy (the one who died in the war) that does cutting-edge research. Someday mental retardation may be a thing of the past. For now, though, it's a burden for the families and individiuals afflicted with it. I think people need to have compassion for the families of those who cannot "make it" in normal life. Unless you've had to cope with the problems of the mentally retarded, you almost cannot imagine how bad they can be. |
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| Kimberly | |
| Arvieta Ladson |
| | 10/19/09 at 11:26 PM | Reply with quote | #33 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Arvieta LadsonThe things that happened to Rose were terrible. It was selfish and not thoughtful. Im so glad there's a new outlook on people with disablities. More people should take psychological and physical problems more serious, rather than just thinking less of them. I believe Rose's labotomy was a result of lack of knowledge and understanding of certain illnesses. However in making a decision that can change a persons life forever, much thought must be considered. Unfortunatly Rosemary was not afforded this luxary. Her future was over looked for another's esteem. |
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| Russ |
| | 10/20/09 at 07:27 PM | Reply with quote | #34 |
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For Anon:
If you were really educated in psychology, you could find a better term than 'stupid' to describe her father. What year did you fail/drop out?
Also, being a psychology major, you do not KNOW what you are talking about, you only know what you have been told. When any psychologist shows proof about anything, you call it a fact.....not a theory. Have you developed ANY theories? Or do you just trust what your mentors have told you?
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| The Ghost of Rose Isabel |
| | 10/30/09 at 04:49 AM | Reply with quote | #35 |
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What surprises me is the respect the Kennedy's get from women. I see the Kennedy as men having a very low opinion of women in general. Women are for the most part chattel as far as they are concerned. Toys to play with but easily disposed of when the use fullness is done. And if the woman refuses to play, well No does NOT necessarily mean NO to a Kennedy. They have left a trail of dead and damaged women in their path.
The fact is they DID lobotomize their daughter. They were not duped. If you think they are so easily mislead, then how can you think they can be such great leaders? And I am old enough to remember that the talk of the time WAS her "wild streak" As the mother of a child with mental issues, it sometimes happens that girls, when they hit puberty get "boy crazy" and when they don't have the capacity to control it, it can get pretty bad. Sex feels good, ask any of the Kennedy MEN. They LOVE it. There is evidence to suggest that girls who are abused at a young age have more of a problem than others. Raising the question in my mind, was Rose perhaps introduced to sex at a young age by those close to her???
The sweet justice is that since sticking a pick in her brain, the best and brightest of the Kennedy men have got something stuck in theirs.... bullets for JFK, RFK, that one that hit the tree and of course Teddy's is water logged, or wait, is that vodka logged?
The above is the best damn post I have seen on the matter. The Kennedy men were sex fiends and pigs I don't care about their politics but I do care about the double standard their daddy perpetuated. JFK and RFK killed Marilyn Monroe in fact there was a documentary on it on the history channel recently and, now; happily the alcholic drunk driving Ted Kennedy who managed to drive his car off a bridge then swim his drunk self to safety meanwhile his FEMALE passenger drowned, is DEAD!!! Good Riddence, afterall lets not forget that he was there with no pants on while William Kennendy Smith raped a girl. The bloated pig wasn't wearing his pants but he was wearing those gin blossoms just like a good old drunk. It's just pathetic that so many Americans are deluded enough to act like the damn Kennedys are saints;maybe in hell   So lets not forget the Kennedys made their money initially in bootleg booze during prohibition so actually the the old man was kinda liken a drug lord is today!
So rot in hell all you oversexed Kennedy males and you too Arthur Miller for putting your retarded son away and treating Marilyn like crap
All my love to you Jello Biafra. God Bless Joe Dimaggio for bringing Marilyn flowers for decades and Tennessee Williams,YOU ARE THE BEST BROTHER A LOBOTOMIZED GIRL COULD HAVE HAD AND A MILLION THANKS FOR THE SEMI AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL SUDDENLY LAST SUMMER !  Oh yeah and much love to Elizabeth Taylor, "your apocalyse was fab" so what if Sebastion didn't write his bloody "summer poem"!
note "your apocalypse was fab" from Hey Jupiter by Tori Amos off the BOYS FOR PELE CD and no it's not Pele the soccer player 
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| Kristi |
| | 11/29/09 at 05:57 PM | Reply with quote | #36 |
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I have been thinking a lot about Rosemary ever since her sister Eunice and brother Ted passed away in August. I view Rosemary's life as very sad. I often wonder what she was thinking and feeling throughout her 86 years of life.I believe she still had thoughts and feelings about life, herself, and her family after the lobotomy. Five years ago, I worked with people who had severe and not so severe intellectual disabilities. Every single one of the people who I worked with, had thoughts and feelings. I also have read "Life with Rose Kennedy" by Barbara Gibson and segments of "The Kennedy Women" by Lawrence Learner. Barbara Gibson was Rose Kennedy's personal secretary in the 1970's; she was also the same person who discovered Rosemary's personal diaries. Lawrence Learner said he interviewed many members of the Kennedy Family, including Eunice, Ted, Patricia, and Jean. Both Gibson and Learner said that Rosemary was angry at her mother Rose whenever she visited her at St. Coletta's or Rosemary's visits to Hyannisport or Palm Beach after the lobotomy. Gibson recalled one time when she was picking up Rosemary at the airport in Palm Beach, saying that she was fine around Gibson and her daughter. Rose appeared not long after that and Rosemary started screaming.
As for Rosemary having mental retardation. I believe Julia's post; her family knew Rosemary before her lobotomy. I wish more friends and acquaintences, such as classmates, teachers, and neighbors of Rosemary would come forward to tell everyone what she was really like before the lobotomy. The problem I believe that most of them are now dead. Both Learner and Gibson said that Rose was a spiritual woman who prayed and went to mass everyday. I am sure that Rose was taught the Ten Commandments and lying is a sin. I don't think she lied about Rosemary having mental retardation.
I think Rosemary reported outbursts, violent behavior, and sneaking out of the covenant during the night were signs that she also had a type of mental illness. I think of her problems of keeping up with her siblings, not having a boyfirend, or having a place of her own caused her to be very sad. I think these were the reasons for her violent outbursts, and rebellious behavior. I wish doctors would prescribe Rosemary medication to treat her behavior instead of her father having her go with the lobotomy. The lobotomy expiremental back then; only a few people before Rosemary had the operation done. I don't know what Joe Kennedy was really thinking when he decided to go for the lobotomy on his daughter. I think he really wanted one of his sons to become president. Rosemary's violent outbursts would be a concern to him and the rest of the Kennedy Family. Back in the early 1940's people with mental retardaiton and mental illnesses were outcasts to society. Much was not known about mental illness or mental retardation back then. I don't know if there was medication to treat mental illness back then. If there was, there was a limit in choices. Rosemary may have taken some medications to treat her behavior, you never know. If she did, these medications didn't work. I think that is why she had the lobotomy done.
Ever since Rosemary's brother John became president, I am thankful for what the Kennedy Family in regards to advocating for people living with mental retardation. The have started with the Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. Foundation, raising money for research in mental retardation. John, as president, started the NICHD (National Institute of Child Health and Human Development), and The President’s Council on Mental Retardation. Ted worked on passing laws during his time as senator, in helping improve the lives with people with disabilities. Rose gave speeches on advocating for people with mental retardation. Eunice started the Special Olympics and Jean, the Very Special Arts (VSA). Eunice's son Anthony started Best Buddies International. You can see what all the Kennedy's did through Eunice Kennedy Shriver's website: http://www.eunicekennedyshriver.org and the Special Olympics website http://www.specialolympics.org For the Special Olympics website, go to search and type Rosemary Kennedy. One of the findings, is Rosemary's eulogy by Eunice. You can see for yourself what all the Kennedy Family has done.
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| Lilli Putian |
| | 12/03/09 at 08:06 PM | Reply with quote | #37 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by julia breveleri
Yes, that is true. However, you need to remember that, in 1940, a couple of her older brothers were serving in the military. Her closest sister, Kathleen, was in the social whirl in England. And I think the Kennedy parents tried to shelter Rosemary's younger sibs from knowing just how "different" she was. Also, to be fair, she did not even last the full 8 weeks at camp. It is also possible that she might have acted out even more had family members come to see her. By acting out, I mean she was capable of making appalling scenes, like a really little kid . . . but she was, physically, a grown woman. It was an awful situation. I think her younger sister Eunice had a heart of gold, bringing those disabled by retardation out into the open. In 1940, things were very different than they are today, and the reason for that is largely what Eunice did - also what the family as a whole did with contributions to research into retardation. In Boston there is an institute named after Joseph P. Kennedy (the one who died in the war) that does cutting-edge research. Someday mental retardation may be a thing of the past. For now, though, it's a burden for the families and individiuals afflicted with it. I think people need to have compassion for the families of those who cannot "make it" in normal life. Unless you've had to cope with the problems of the mentally retarded, you almost cannot imagine how bad they can be.
Well, from the biographies I read, I'd act out, too, if my parents continually kept me locked up in a Catholic school.
Julia, you know what I think? I think you are not only full of beans, but that you need attention of some sort. If you had a letter that Rosemary Kennedy wrote, you'd share it.
Julia, what do you mean by appalling scenes?
Anyway, if you believe Julia, she's an extremely old person to have this first-hand knowledge.
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| Kristi |
| | 12/27/09 at 08:13 PM | Reply with quote | #38 |
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What Julia said, is that her family owned the camp when Rosemary was counselor there. Julia did not say that she owned the camp. Lilli, you are right, Julia is a person who is up there in age. I am saying this if she personally knew Rosemary herself. The summer of 1940 occurred 70 years ago. Julia must be older than 80 years of age right now. There are 80 and 90 year old people who are still active in life. Look at John McCain's mother (Roberta), who was 95 at the time when she was campaigning for her son. I believe there are 80 and 90 year old people using the internet, and Julia is one of them. Another thought I have, is that Julia's family might have told her about Rosemary. Julia could then have been a small child under the age of 10 in 1940, or she was not born yet. Julia referred to Rosemary being close to Kathleen. I think Rosemary was close to all of her siblings growing up. Maybe Rosemary talked about Kathleen the most to Julia's family. Kathleen was the sister who was the closest in age to Rosemary. In Julia saying that, I was surprised that she was the closest to Kathleen. I always thought Rosemary and Eunice were closer. They were partners in sailing races and they went to Switzerland together in 1936, according to Barbara Gibson. Rosemary was close to her older brothers as well, that was according to Eunice's 1962 Saturday Evening Post Article "Hope for Retarded Children" - "Later on, in her teens it was more difficult for her. In social competition she couldn't keep up. She learned to dance well enough for my brothers to take her along to parties, but it wasn't easy when Rose would say, "Why don't other boys ask me to dance?" (Saturday Evening Post, September 22, 1962, p. 71).
Anyway it was really sad what happened to Rosemary. I believe Rosemary did indeed suffer while living on earth, before and after the lobotomy. I believe she is in heaven now no longer suffering. She is reunited with the family members who deserve to be up there.
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| kristen |
| | 01/04/10 at 01:24 AM | Reply with quote | #40 |
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I get that her parents wanted her to have the lobotomy but why on earth did she let them do it to her. I mean she was under the influence that this procedure was going to help her so I guess I can understand. The weird thing is people wrote that her story makes even the most hardened of criminals feel their heart strings pulled. And in reality, if I was about to undergo a procedure, one which even my parents were convinced was the right thing to do I think I'd still look into it. And honestly probably want to kill the people who were trying to do it to me, before letting them do it to me. It's like they took a vulnerable, depressed, and grief stricken woman and completely misled her. And even though she put up the effort to fight for her life and tried to escape the life she was being forced into... I'm shocked people even hold the Kennedy family in such high regard. The daughter suffered for her father's sins. I mean for such a "religious family" maybe he should have read the Bible a bit more closely. I mean doesn't it ring familiar with things about Abraham almost killing or slaying his own son... then God helps or intervenes in the last second and Abraham and his son return home.... his faith restored in God. Like why did Joe Kennedy take it so far. I wonder who he was trying to help. |
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| kristen |
| | 01/04/10 at 04:27 AM | Reply with quote | #41 |
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These people choose to live their lives on the large scale public arena. And then when Rosemary gets a lobotomy, does Joe get the 3rd degree about what the hell happened there... if he did or if any of his siblings did I'm pretty sure it wasn't on 2020. I'd love to see someone from that family, who actually has a clue, have to answer the tough questions. And you know people are asking but somehow they escape.
I'd also love to know why we allow them to shroud their lives in mystery. Why are we not allowed to know the exact details about the death of JFK? What's this veil of secrecy only the Kennedy's seem to have with regards to privacy. While we all speculate and wonder- I'd love to know how many times you think any of them are wondering about your problems. Your individual humiliations, personal strife, family conflict, or whatever it is.
So we're supposed to know the truth of JFK's murder in 2029, that is when the official records will be released? What kind of bullshit is that? I mean we allow a government to lead us but all the while under blind faith. What if the person who shot Kennedy was hired by someone in the family? Apparently they are a pretty competitive family to try and convince their sister she is retarded, mildly, and then have her lobotomized... all the while all of her siblings unable to do much of anything to stop their parents. I mean her older brothers why were they unable to do something to help her or even her younger siblings. Was she just a ruthless woman... or what happened? I'd like to believe if my parents thought it'd be a good idea to perform some lobotomy on my sibling I'd have a thing or two to say about it. I'd like to believe something would bring them to their senses before deciding to splice and remove parts of my siblings brain, noble prize or no noble prize (given to the guy who created this procedure). I mean if their father's, Joe's, motive was to prevent Rosemary from causing embarrassment and humiliation to the family (and to the degree they were afraid to label her and treat her mental illness because they were in politics) I'm pretty sure he failed seeing as his solution to this was to remove part of his daughter's brain- I mean what could be more embarrassing for their family then to have their father have a doctor perform a procedure on his daughter that was a "quick fix"-he was easily misled which is even more embarrassing for the family then I'm sure his daughter could have brought on because of her boy craziness. It seems like in his quest to prevent shame, humiliation, and embarrassment she was supposedly capable of causing the family... Joe, himself, did just that - he shamed the family.
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| kristen |
| | 01/04/10 at 05:01 AM | Reply with quote | #42 |
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For that matter did Joe actually do any research on the findings himself. Did he look into the lives of the people who had the surgery on themselves? And if he did I'd be real curious to know... I would definitely want to know if he thought these people looked normal or happy after this surgery. Or did he just throw his daughter under the knife, on her brain (emphasis brain), based on evidence provided by the doctor interested in slicing up his daughters brain... did he get a second opinion?
Or did he just go on pure data related evidence. Like it looked good on paper so must be good. Because I studied psychology and guess what, every individual I've seen who has had a lobotomy, in the books, does not look so hot afterward. They look pretty spaced out on the mild side (but not happy like almost disaffected or something) and with severity I'm pretty sure I learned these people were like she was, unable to take of themselves anymore.
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| Kristen |
| | 01/04/10 at 09:23 AM | Reply with quote | #43 |
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Julia said, "Her open smile, bright eyes, so charming in pictures, were off-putting in person because they were inappropriate to her situation."
how were they inappropriate to her situation?
also, when you say she was mentally slow, child-like, do you mean something like Aunt Bella from Lost in Yonkers?
How much older is she than you?- by the way
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| kristen |
| | 01/04/10 at 11:00 PM | Reply with quote | #44 |
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Assuming she was slow (which is very hard to believe) I'm pretty sure Joe and Rose's desire to hide their daughter's disability from her siblings probably was not in her best interest... I can understand why they would want to do so but not to the extent of engaging in medical procedures on her brain - not taking that big of a chance... or that far of a reach.
One of the people who posted mentioned that she has a child who is mildly slow and that her child requires a lot of guidance... well this makes me think Joe recognized this and needed to provide extra guidance to her but was more concerned about giving extra guidance to his own goals of having a son for President
All in all the deaths of the Kennedy's children, in all their glory and fame, was harnessed by Eunice who brought huge success to the cause of caring for people with disabilities. This greatly benefited their father and mother who made the horrible decision to lobotomize a child who may or may not have been slow. Ensuring her brothers and sisters before her did not die in vain.
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| Sandra Shevey |
| | 01/05/10 at 10:12 AM | Reply with quote | #45 |
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So from 1941-1949 when Joseph Kennedy authorised the lobotomy on his daughter Rosemary, what was going on that she should shout about/tell the world.?....the Holocaust and Papa Joe`s collusion....individual murders (via the Mafia....his son President John Kennedy conspired with the Mafia).....etc.
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